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> Creating standard insert turn tools in the tool library
Mike Henry
post Dec 29 2015, 10:44 PM
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I've just started playing with SC 10 and am beginning with turn operations. I'll be using an 8-place turret populated mostly with standard insert tooling, like SCLCR, MWLNR, etc. It appears that inserts and toolholders can be specified separately using standard designations, like CCGT for an insert and SCLCR for its corresponding toolholder. It appears that one can then define a turn tool using the designations for the insert and the toolholder so that the tool has all of the correct geometry.

My question is if this is work flow is pretty solid for creating insert tools right now or if it is more of a work in progress? I've had mixed success and for right now would just like to know if I should push on or am up against a very tall wall.

Mike


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Rahmtech
post Dec 31 2015, 11:08 AM
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Hi Mike
I also have trouble with that.
/micke
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Sprut_UK
post Dec 31 2015, 04:00 PM
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I haven't done a lot with creating toolholders / inserts using the method that you describe.
I tend to modify an existing toolholder / insert combination within a lathe operation, then I save it using the available 'Tools kit' options. Please see the attached screengrab that shows this.

I hope this helps?

Dave
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Attached File  2015_12_31_15_56_27.png ( 52.96K ) Number of downloads: 7
 


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Mike Henry
post Dec 31 2015, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (Sprut_UK @ Dec 31 2015, 04:00 PM) *
I haven't done a lot with creating toolholders / inserts using the method that you describe. I tend to modify an existing toolholder / insert combination within a lathe operation, then I save it using the available 'Tools kit' options. Please see the attached screengrab that shows this. I hope this helps? Dave


Thanks David, that does help. I've about resolved myself to doing the same thing; it just seems a shame that Sprut is most of the way there with this. Is Yuri still the guy to contact in tech support? It wouldn't hurt to ask him about this.

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Sprut_UK
post Jan 1 2016, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (Mike Henry @ Dec 31 2015, 10:57 PM) *
Thanks David, that does help. I've about resolved myself to doing the same thing; it just seems a shame that Sprut is most of the way there with this. Is Yuri still the guy to contact in tech support? It wouldn't hurt to ask him about this.


Yes, Yuriy would still be your best bet. He doesn't do the tech support himself, but he'll pass it on to the relevant engineer to get their input.

Dave


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Mike Henry
post Jan 1 2016, 10:59 PM
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OK, I'll put together a detailed workflow with screenshots and send that to him along with my questions or suggestions. I've spent a few more hours today on insert turn tools and the library so I'm starting to get a sense of what does and what doesn't work.

Mike
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Rahmtech
post Jan 4 2016, 02:07 PM
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Have you ever looked at eCam? http://ecam.altervista.org/
It is a free lathe/mill software that I?m planing to use for my lathe (writing post processor for the moment). The day that sprutCAM support multiple windows/sessions I hope I can use SprutCAM instead. eCam has a simple material table and a simple toollibrary that works good! It is cheap solution to place an old computer running DNC and eCAM beside the lathe. SprutCAM is more anvanced but for all of us making small series in slow/simple machines I think eCAM is better. To begin with it has a good (but simple) material and toollibrary which the infinitly more expensive SprutCAM don?t have.

If they have to make a tutorial for inserts/tools it?s complex if you ask me. It must always be simple. Take a look at eCAM, I think it has some good ideas about tools and materials. It is simple but it is also free.

/micke
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Sprut_UK
post Jan 4 2016, 06:21 PM
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Hi Micke, thanks for your recommendation. I'm unclear what multiple windows / sessions have to do with material library and tool inserts though, could you possibly expand on this a bit, thanks? Who has to make a tutorial about inserts?
SprutCAM is not for everyone, and clearly it is not for you tongue.gif
Enjoy using ecam.

Dave


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Rahmtech
post Jan 5 2016, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE (Sprut_UK @ Jan 4 2016, 07:21 PM) *
Hi Micke, thanks for your recommendation. I'm unclear what multiple windows / sessions have to do with material library and tool inserts though, could you possibly expand on this a bit, thanks? Who has to make a tutorial about inserts?
SprutCAM is not for everyone, and clearly it is not for you tongue.gif
Enjoy using ecam.

Dave


Hi Dave
Sorry that I?m unclear. I?ll try to explain myself.

Mike wrote:
OK, I'll put together a detailed workflow with screenshots and send that to him along with my questions or suggestions. I've spent a few more hours today on insert turn tools and the library so I'm starting to get a sense of what does and what doesn't work.

Mike

I thought Mike wrote about making a help/tutorial with the screenshots.

Mulitple sessions have nothing with inserts or material library to do. I has with the general work i SprutCAM. SC is very good in many ways but it also has some bugs. One is that it looses z-values for holes when opening/closing parts. (I have that problem in V9.) This makes it very slow to switch between parts. If the part has many holes it takes to much time to switch part becaue every single hole operation needs to be checked to see if the z-values are correct. Thats why I?m looking for another solution for my lathe then SC. By using SC in the lathe I end up with more time checking z-values when switching between parts for turning and milling. The day that SC has fixed the lost z-value bug some of the problem is gone. But when the bug is fixed it is still a bit mess to switch between parts if they are big. Some parts takes up to 6-8 minutes to open (formtools). In thoose cases it is not fun to switch part to make a minor change.

Maybee SC is not for me rolleyes.gif . I have used it for 1-1,5 year daily and I like it. Before SC I have done ISO programming, Heidenhain dialog, Mazatrol, OneCNC and EdgeCAM. When I started my own workshop I choosed SC because I got a very good software that is affordable. I rather push on the good then the affordable side of the software. I would still choose it over the last version of EdgeCAM that I used (2012R"). It is more stable in the roughing cycles and handle fixtures, multiple parts much better. It even handle steep/shallow surfaces better = easier to get a good finish. I can?t compare it to the later EC versions. Only used it for milling thought. But there are bad things. Most of them (all that I can remember right now) is related to tools and materials.

I uploaded some screenshots how eCAM handles materials and tools. As you see it is a simple straight forward interface. The tools store their own feed/speed data. I set a material for the stock and the program fetch values from the tool. It is just to press the material button to se and change the properties for that tool. It is simple but to be honest, it?s enought most of the times. EdgeCAM has a way more advanced system but I can?t realy see how much better it is. When I used EdgeCAM I set up all inserts, holders, materials to get the maximun ouf of the software but still I had to adjust the values depending on the conditions. But it was way more work to set it up. In this case the freeware wins over the highend software. Thats bad.

Why is the toollibrary in SC bad? First of all. No materials for milling. Nothing. How to set feed/speed correct? I can open the .csv file and edit it in Notepad. I can edit the toollibrary by chosing the table view and enter new values that are stored. It took some time to understand that I had to make that workaround. Why can?t I edit the value by select the tool and edit in the table below (see pic)? If you change all our feed/speed data to match aluminium and then you are going to do some steel milling and change the values in the Feed/Speeds tab in the operation parameters to match steel. If you need to change the tool diameter then you have to check your feed/speed data again, it is back to the values in the .csv file. They are overwritten by the default values. Much better to have a get data from material checkbox and if you enter own values the checkbox is unchecked and it saves your custom values in that cycle, an overide function. Each tool should hold it?s coolant data, no use to uncheck that everytime. It?s just an iterative task that don?t add any value.

Things like that make the toollibrary bad. It can?t be good if I have to enter the same values over and over again. Milling plastic today = change values. Milling steel tomorrow = new values. Why can?t I set my own values for each material and apply it? Computers are good at iterating task like saving and appliying data over and over again. Not good that all users have to do it. It is not working smart. Even I can wrote a software that stores feed, speed, diameter, lenght and all other properties that belongs to the tool. I can get it to change feed/speed accordning to a set material as well. I?m serious with that. I can write that code and I?m not a developer. But the people at SC are realy skilled! Thery are great developers, I?m not. They have made a software that make good reliable toolpaths but they haven?t made the easy part. Wrong feed/speed values is one of the most common causes that I have to stop a machine and go back to SprutCAM and change things, not bad toolpaths or crashes. It is rocksolid except feed/speed.

But maybee your right...SprutCAM is not for me when I think that they should make small changes that helps every user every day worldwide. And it takes them 30 hours to fix it if they go with a simple solution and 3 weeks if they make an advanced solution that most of the users only use 30% of.
/micke
Attached File(s)
Attached File  SC_tool.PNG ( 216.03K ) Number of downloads: 6
Attached File  SC_toollib.PNG ( 98.74K ) Number of downloads: 1
Attached File  eCAM_part_off.PNG ( 113.8K ) Number of downloads: 6
Attached File  eCAM_80degree.PNG ( 117.56K ) Number of downloads: 3
Attached File  eCAM_Alu.PNG ( 109.77K ) Number of downloads: 5
Attached File  eCAM_Steel.PNG ( 109.56K ) Number of downloads: 4
 
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Sprut_UK
post Jan 5 2016, 12:51 PM
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Hi Micke, I am not aware of any bugs relating to losing Z- positions in holes, can you send me either a project that has this problem, or better still a short video that shows what you are referring to?
One question for you; are you running SprutCAM with full administrator rights? I'm not talking about a user account with admin rights, but actually running SprutCAM itself with full admin rights?
With regard to opening large models in SprutCAM, the higher spec PC that is used, the quicker SprutCAM will open them. Apparently they have made quite a few changes to their support of Nvidia graphics cards in V10, but i don't have any benchmark figures for these improvements.

With regard to the lack of a materials database, you are preaching to the converted smile.gif . I created a VB program for this (utilising an Excel spreadsheet) many years ago and sent a copy to the SprutCAM development engineers at their request, but they obviously have had other priorities.
As a workaround you can use the 'Group' feature (see attachment) to alter the surface / cutting speed for the operations contained within that group that are also using the surface / cutting speed option. These operations could all be using the same or different cutters.
What some of my customers prefer to do is to create their own 'user' operations that will have the speeds & feeds set for a particular material, and when naming the operation include the material within the name.

I hope this helps?

Dave
Attached File(s)
Attached File  2016_01_05_12_34_18.png ( 40.45K ) Number of downloads: 10
 


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Rahmtech
post Jan 5 2016, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Sprut_UK @ Jan 5 2016, 01:51 PM) *
Hi Micke, I am not aware of any bugs relating to losing Z- positions in holes, can you send me either a project that has this problem, or better still a short video that shows what you are referring to?
One question for you; are you running SprutCAM with full administrator rights? I'm not talking about a user account with admin rights, but actually running SprutCAM itself with full admin rights?
With regard to opening large models in SprutCAM, the higher spec PC that is used, the quicker SprutCAM will open them. Apparently they have made quite a few changes to their support of Nvidia graphics cards in V10, but i don't have any benchmark figures for these improvements.

With regard to the lack of a materials database, you are preaching to the converted smile.gif . I created a VB program for this (utilising an Excel spreadsheet) many years ago and sent a copy to the SprutCAM development engineers at their request, but they obviously have had other priorities.
As a workaround you can use the 'Group' feature (see attachment) to alter the surface / cutting speed for the operations contained within that group that are also using the surface / cutting speed option. These operations could all be using the same or different cutters.
What some of my customers prefer to do is to create their own 'user' operations that will have the speeds & feeds set for a particular material, and when naming the operation include the material within the name.

I hope this helps?

Dave


Hi Dave
I did?t know about the group posibility. One interesting thing I found is that when I open "old" parts made a couple a weeks ago the holes are often out of value. When I change the value and open the same part again the value is correct. They must have fixed it in some of the last updates because this has been a big issue for me.
Thanks for the group tip. I?ll try if it can be a workaround so far. I have several times been in contact with support about a better toollibrary with materials.
/micke

Attached File(s)
Attached File  Screen_Shot_01_05_16_at_02.06_PM.PNG ( 54.54K ) Number of downloads: 11
Attached File  Screen_Shot_01_05_16_at_02.26_PM.PNG ( 292.98K ) Number of downloads: 5
 
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Sprut_UK
post Jan 5 2016, 05:36 PM
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Your image shows that you aren't running SprutCAM with full admin rights. I have found the best way is to create a shortcut, then right click it, select 'Properties' then 'Advanced' and select 'Run as administrator'.
Let me know if the 'Holes' value problem is now solved? It might be related to the Administrator rights issue.........if this is the case, it may well still occur when opening previous projects that were originally created without full admin rights.....

Lets keep the pressure up for a materials database........it will be very useful wink.gif They are on their Christmas break at the moment though.

Dave


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Mike Henry
post Jan 5 2016, 11:50 PM
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Micke,

By detailed workflow and screenshots I was referring to material that I would be sending to Sprut tech support to illustrate the problems I've been having using the turn tool library. It is intended to help them either resolve the problems I'm having in that regard or to explain to me what I am doing wrong.

Mike

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